The Millions Interview

Mark de Silva is Crazy and Unstable and Uncomfortable

By posted at 6:00 am on March 25, 2016 12

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Mark de Silva wrote his debut novel Square Wave (Two Dollar Radio) between the hours of five and eight a.m., before day jobs at such revered publications as The Paris Review, Harper’s, and The New York Times. For the first five years, he showed it to no one, sparing friends and colleagues the awkwardness of false encouragement.

Contrary to the literary pedigree in which he steeps, de Silva comes from philosophy (he has a Bachelor’s from Brown and a PhD from Cambridge). He doesn’t want to be Jonathan Franzen or even Jonathan Lethem. He questions the rise of absorbing, familiar “memoir fiction,” and insinuates that J-Franz dumbed down for his audience to double his dollar. In a sprawling 3:AM Magazine essay from last December, de Silva writes:

Consider how many novels of agreed artistic merit — Tristram ShandyMoby DickThe Man Without QualitiesTo the Lighthouse, or, to take Franzen’s chosen status-model exemplar, The Recognitions — make no attempt to hold us in a continuous state of absorption. Their authors could not have failed to understand, in writing them, that it would have to be the ravenousness of the reader’s mind that drove him through these books, if anything did.

The ravenousness of the reader’s must drive him or her through Square Wave. By the author’s own admission, his is a strange, unflinching work that almost defies explanation. It takes place in the future, and the past, but it’s really about the present. It is equal parts discursive and destructive, philosophical and textural. His is a sci-fi novel of ideas — the former term a pejorative by literary standards, the latter one by de Silva’s.

I appreciate de Silva’s ideas, and his sentences, and his time, and his candor, but I won’t pretend I grasped the bulk of his book.

The Millions: You’ve said that the Square Wave writing process was deeply intuitive. Did you map out the plot beforehand?

Mark de Silva: Definitely not. I used index cards, but they were bits of sense memory, like the gleam of a knife or something. That would be enough to trigger a scene. That’s all I wanted from the index card. I didn’t want a fixed idea because I was writing what I knew would be regarded as a novel of ideas. I was especially wary about the wooden kind of book that comes out over-determined. It almost seems like a kind of allegory or parable; I was very concerned not to do that. It seems like such a waste both of philosophy and of literature: it’s the worst of both worlds. It’s not rigorous philosophy and it’s not glorious or imaginative literature.

I was wary of thinking about it too much. But I had had no real creative writing background since my undergrad days, when I had done a few fiction pieces and a couple of workshops. So I was doing this research and taking these notes and just hoping I could summon capacities that I had no real knowledge I could.

TM: Did you run into doubt?

MDS: When I applied for the Paris Review internship — you have to do these analyses of pieces and suggest what’s wrong, whether this belongs in the Review or not — my dad said, “How would you know anything about it?” [Laughs.] I said, “Well, I read a lot. Why does the world have to be this credentialized thing?” So I was starting from that outsider’s point of view from the beginning, even getting that job. I thought, I’m just gonna build from scratch, without an idea of what’s right and what’s wrong. And that was true of the entire book; it was a seat-of-the-pants thing. It was scary to do, but it was also like, look man, you’re not part of that creative writing world, you’re gonna have to find your own terms. Because I didn’t want to write a standard literary novel in the way that we have, you know, good novels by people like, say, Maggie Shipstead. I knew that wasn’t me, because I wanted to draw on all the philosophy and all that I had done. I knew there was not going to be a great template for what I was doing, so I said fuck it, I’m just going to run with it, see where my instincts take me.

TM: How did the work you read at the Paris Review and Harper’s affect that outsider’s mentality?

MDS: Being at The Paris Review was wonderful in the sense of — first of all it’s a great operation, a very interesting place with very smart people. But it was also teaching me that I was not going to write a Paris Review story. It’s just not who I am. We had a story run by Claire Vaye Watkins, another by Alexandra Kleeman, and Jonathan Franzen. It was a nice time to be there; we caught a lot of these big things. And Lorin Stein was just taking over, so there was a new regime. Lorin Stein plays a big role in shaping New York sensibilities; I think that’s fair to say.

I was seeing that, as much as I respected what was in the magazine — like I get why it’s in the magazine — I also did not feel an intuitive bond to it. These weren’t the stories I wanted to tell. It almost steeled me against becoming a hack Paris Review writer, like a bad version of Alexandra Kleeman. I figured, draw on your strength — your strength is your difference. Your strength is that you’re not one of these people. You’re not a Yale English major who has dreamt all their life to write for the Paris Review. You’re this weird philosophy guy who’s trying to find some way of harnessing his idiosyncratic sensibilities, and maybe it’s literature.

TM: Square Wave is a challenging book. Did you worry at all about its marketability?

MDS: I knew from the beginning that this was gonna be a difficult book to sell. [Laughs.] I wasn’t totally surprised when a lot of agents — who were nice enough to read, you know — just sort of shrugged their shoulders, saying, “I don’t even know how to criticize what you’ve done.” They didn’t say, “I didn’t buy that motivation;” that’s not the kind of criticism I got. It was more like, “I don’t know what to make of it. I don’t know what kind of market exists for something like this.” [Laughs.]

But I was inspired by people like Tom McCarthy. I also remember reading Javier Marías, who has become for me a very important writer because he’s very discursive, very philosophical. But also his language is very, very literary, and he refers to his work as a mode of literary thinking. In other words, thinking and literature, thinking and scene and sense detail are one thing — not two things. It isn’t pretty language mapped onto thinking, or taking rigorous thinking and finding a way to turn it into literature. It’s trying to do both at the same time. I took great inspiration from Marías, because I saw this guy and thought, Oh, some people do this.

TM: One of the themes of the book is that violence is inevitable and often unfathomable. If that’s the case, what should we do? How should that truth shape our philosophy and/or our politics?

MDS: I think the book…Thinking about it now, the book is an attempt to grapple — without that distance that’s normally part of academia — to grapple in a real life, textural way with just that question. It would be nice to believe that all our social problems or moral dilemmas could be resolved through mechanisms that became part of the culture as far back as the Glorious Revolution. From that point on, there’s a rejection of monarchy, the sovereign as an absolute, and the people are in charge of a parliamentary system. From that point on, we’ve believed that the parliamentarian system of consensus-building amongst discrete points of view is the best mode of governance. I don’t think the book is necessarily a rejection of that, but the book is a revisitation of the question, like, how certain can we be that these Enlightenment mechanisms can lead to a stable society?

In a community that’s so fractured — the way obviously America is, as well as many other parts of the world — is a simple taking of votes the way to solve those problems? Where the state is simply a managing agent, a sort of referee. We tabulate votes, and whoever gets the most, we’re gonna live that way. And the rest of the people are gonna have to learn to live with it. That’s our system, now, you know, and that 49 percent who lost end up feeling really, really unhappy. It’s the consequence of a certain kind of democratic, almost legalistic-democratic thinking, of poll-taking, vote-taking. Where the losers just have to live with it. Like suck it up, you lost.

TM: In our defense, that competitive streak does seem very American.

MDS: And now we’ve come to laugh at the half that lost! We’re not even trying to connect with them anymore. Like, “We have Congress now. You’ll live like us now.” And then the next election, “Oh, now we have Congress.” Or, “We have the President.” We’re not communicating anymore. I don’t think so. We just want to win. We want to win, and the book is about that idea of factional winning, right, ’cause there are all these competing factions — and how it seems the driving force for many of them is simply, “I wanna come out on top so that I can dominate the rest of the players. As long as I can hold on, then I don’t have to take the rest of the players seriously.” I think that’s how the book proceeds in a certain way. It’s frightening, but I do think it’s true to a certain kind of neutered conception of democracy.

Parts of the book suggest that the state itself has to take a stand on this. A community has to have shared values. It’s not enough to say, “We vote, and if I win, you’re gonna live like me,” or, “If you win, I’ll live like you.” That’s not a good agreement. That’s the contract theory, right? A contractual view of politics maybe is not as good as a communitarian view, where we say, “Tell me why living the way you want to live is a good idea. Just tell me.” Let’s have moral debates rather than vote-taking debates. I think a lot of our politics now is about who can get better numbers at the poll, rather than actually reaching out and trying to convince someone of a way of life.

TM: I’m assuming the current election season reinforces that notion for you?

MDS: Absolutely. I mean look at the way the elections are covered; we’re not even interested in understanding. We want to ridicule the Tea Party, but is that really productive, for even a leftist? I actually don’t think that’s productive. I think we have to ask what is motivating these people. After 9/11, for instance, the original reaction was, “We just need to kill a bunch of the people from the Middle East.” I mean, let’s face it, there was a bloodlust. Later people starting thinking very systematically — I think Susan Sontag said very shortly after, and very controversially, “We need to ask questions. Why would anyone be driven to do such heinous things, and to throw away their own life?” Like, these are suicide bombers. Something must be going on. These people are not insane. They don’t need to go to a psychiatrist. But that’s how we portrayed them: monsters.

They’re people who somehow feel betrayed. And I feel, in a different way, that with the Tea Party — from a solid, liberal-leaning citizen, which I feel like I am, essentially — that our obligation is to say, “What could drive someone to a Tea Party view?” Not to say, “Let’s rally troops and win, because these guys are nuts.” I don’t like that, and I don’t think that’s productive.

I’ve said this in a very roundabout way, but that’s my feeling about politics, and I think that comes out in the book.

TM: You’ve also said that you like the idea of stretching people’s brains a bit, and making them read something they wouldn’t normally read.

MDS: Right.

TM: You called these kinds of books — your kind of book — an “acquired taste.”

MDS: Yes.

TM: If your book is an acquired taste, what is it?

MDS: [Laughs.] It’s like a 140-proof, barrel-strength whiskey. It doesn’t go down easy. In terms of the reading experience, it has to be consumed quite slowly. We’ve gotten used to immediacy and absorption and rapidity. We expect books to just pull us in and run with it. This is a book that you should probably not try to read 100 pages of in a night.

I like literature, and experiences in life, that — rather than cater to our existing intuitions about how life works, or about how literature works — expand our understanding of common sense. I hope a book like mine will strike someone as violating a lot of common sense ideas about literature. I know it will. It violates my common sense about literature, and I wrote it. I had to follow my intuitions to this strange place. I know it’s kind of crazy and unstable and uncomfortable: that’s how I felt writing it. So you could say, in the weird way “memoir fiction” is all the rage now, that’s the way that autobiography figures in mine.





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12 Responses to “Mark de Silva is Crazy and Unstable and Uncomfortable”

  1. Anon
    at 12:41 pm on March 25, 2016

    These young writers should take a page from the Gaddis playbook and keep their mouths shut when it comes to their work, or at least be vague about it if they are asked.

  2. butt
    at 4:10 pm on March 25, 2016

    Page 1: “Her hands clung to the edge of the sink as she leaned over it, finding a way into the margins of his view as her bare breasts grazed the Bolognese-stained plates poking up out of dishwater, frothless now after three days of attrition.”

  3. Anon
    at 6:41 pm on March 25, 2016

    ^ Barf.

  4. jr
    at 5:43 am on March 26, 2016

    his point about literary thinking strikes me as possible. definitely in some of vollman’s later historical works and in the reenactment scenes in remainder bymccarthy that seems to be taking place. not sure what a novel of ideas really is anymore, but i do like the idea of a book that requires something from their readers. the longer i’ve spent reading the more ive drawn to writers saying something unfamiliar or least commited to doing something else than just usual domestic dramas.

  5. Moe Murph
    at 9:54 am on March 26, 2016

    @Butt – Mr. Butt, I may not always see eye-to-eye with you, but in the immortal words of that edgy and dangerous wit John Oliver, the part of me I sorts hate loves you.

    Whilst lurking in a somewhat unremarkable place with questionably sentient people, I realize I should spare you the awkwardness of this emotionally uncomfortable Idea, but the pedigree in which I steep (drunk and lacking any verbal filter) bids me shout (in an abstract sense of shouting-nes) to the rooftops. Long have I mused, dipping my own matronly bosom over that same primordial soup of soap_sudded sink.

    Moe Murphy
    Generally Ravenous, But Usually For Grill Cheese Sandwiches

  6. butt
    at 11:52 am on March 26, 2016

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/07/mark-de-silva-impaled-by-falling-umbrella.html

    “While taking out the trash one day in March, New York Times Opinionator columnist Mark de Silva stuck his hand in the garbage chute of his building, Trump Parc, only to have it impaled by a falling umbrella someone had dropped into the chute from a higher floor, according to his lawsuit against the building manager.”

  7. Fred
    at 9:46 pm on March 26, 2016

    Average condo in Trump Parc goes for $4 mil. Philosophy really does pay! Hopefully the guy got millions for the scratch on his hand though. A lot harder to write masturbatory prose with a bandaged palm.

  8. Hana Managa
    at 9:55 pm on March 26, 2016

    I very much enjoy reading novels of ideas IF the ideas are original and remarkable and the writing itself is good. Unfortunately, I didn’t have an opportunity to evaluate, much less enjoy, the ideas because (as commenters above have so entertainingly indicated) the first page fails the good-writing test…mightily.

  9. Moe Murph
    at 8:43 am on March 27, 2016

    Page 2: She took off her shirt after he spilled his artisanal mead all over the front. Dang, where is the Woolite? Reaching over to the window shelf for the bottle, she splashed greasy water all over herself.

    When the hell was he going to wash those dishes? The dishes sensed her despair, but remained silent.

    More Murphy
    Scribbler of Domesticity

  10. Jon
    at 9:47 am on March 27, 2016

    The 3 am piece had it out for memoir but memoir can be as complex and edifying as anything else. love the bookworm- surprised that he didn’t take that up at all when he interviewed him. I have written both short fiction and short memoir work and find boundary fluid

  11. Moe Murph
    at 12:05 pm on March 29, 2016

    The Koan of Dirty Dishes – If dirty dishes are soaking in the sink and no one notices them, are there dirty dishes soaking in the sink?

    Moe Murph
    It’s Never Just About the Dirty Dishes

  12. Moe Mjurph
    at 10:51 am on March 31, 2016

    “You’re so… so.. questioning… so uncomfortable… so… complicated. Please let me proofread your chapbook or cook you Bolognese.” (Clueless Barrista Gal – Early 21st Century, Americas)

    Moe Murph
    Reaching Peak Knausgård

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